Monday, November 8, 2010

The Second Topic of Discussion

Jennifer said...
What about when Humiliation is featured in caps? How can you put something like that in a caption with few words, or in a long series and make sure you hit that button, and still not offend the person? I've used it as a theme in many of my caps. I've also had it used in captions made for me, expertly so in some case's. but when I roleplay the scenario the person I play with almost never can get that across. May I add, your blog is a very interesting idea and I do love to see the creative process. I notice you only have two links, but if you had more you might attract a larger audience.

Well, I tend to tread VERY lightly when using humiliation in a caption for someone else, especially someone that I do not know well. Usually I take into account how they've responded to (1) other captions made for them by others, and (2) if/how they respond to captions I've made for others. This is where people leaving comments pays huge dividends. If a person has responded well to something I've done, then I am more likely to target them in a future caption AND I have a decent guide to what they are looking for.

Preferences are even more important when working with humiliation. Not so much in what people like, but in what they DON'T like. I would rather make a relatively safe caption, then one that goes too far. I can always push the envelope in future captions for them. For instance, with Jennifer up above, I know her really well, and I'm pretty sure that I know exactly what will make her shiver and where the line is that I need not cross. I got to that point by becoming friendly, chatting in YIM, and just comments we've left for each other through the years. There should always been an open line of communication involved.

How to put across the situation in a smattering of words? I would suggest using a picture that explicitly gives a huge amount of background so that you can save on word space. Bondage pictures would imply being forced to do something, though even just having the girl on her knees or below another would show submission of some sort. A public photo would already lend itself to embarrassment scenarios. For text, it would often be better to just have dialog between the humiliated and the dominant, or the humiliated and someone that person knows. There is no real WRONG way of doing it though.

I do have more to discuss, but I am curious to see what others have to say before I elaborate more, as someone might do so more eloquently that I could.

Lastly, I thank you for thinking this blog is an interesting idea. As I've said in the past, I love creating captions and I don't think the craft gets enough attention. Its a vehicle for fantasy, but often the best captions are those that make you think, whether it is conscious or not. I'd like to think my captions appeal to more than just a prurient interest, and that the composition is done correctly, instead of just slapping some words on top of a smutty picture.


  1. your last caption for me is a very good example of knowing me well enough to make a caption that pushes my buttons. you know my kinks well, and you have made a few favs of mine. but with the kink in question, I know you try to walk a thin line with it, which is why, I'm not sure if you have tried to push that particular kink with me.

    It never has to be the main focus of a caption, but it more often than not goes hand and hand with forced fem, for me. I'm not saying I do a good job of portraying it in my caps, but from what I've read of others trying to use it in their role play's, storys, and caps. they always seem to dance around it, as if they are afraid too push boundaries, as if no one else enjoys it.

    I know a few people on the haven say no to it, but it's not against the rules. so when some one has it in their prefs, they shouldn't be ashamed too try it and see what works. It always seems they try to "balance" the humiliation with rapid acceptance. to me, that ruins it. It takes the sting out and make all of the rest seem unnecessary.

    that's fine if it's your style, but I see it from 90% of the caption authors out there. even from caption authors that love humiliation and then try to make humiliation caps for others that enjoy it as well.

    It just got me to thinking, is it really that hard to feature in a story, role play, or caption? or do they suddenly regret it and try to put a willing spin on it? hard to answer. but the fact remains, not many try hard to push that kink.

  2. @ Jenniger

    I think that there is a tipping point as to how much is too much when it comes to humiliation. Everyone has boundaries and most would tend to err on the side of toeing the line instead of blaring through it.

    Also, when reading a story, the more something is pushed, the more desensitized the reader becomes. I'm a firm believer that too many sex scenes wreck a story. Unless its a "Groundhog Day" kind of story where you are showing a progression of change and details change over time, but even then, the author would probably lose me way before the payoff.

    I would say that humiliation and degradation are two different things. That there is some acceptance and the humiliated MUST at some point be compliant or it is just abuse. That is why great stories/captions have that "cool down" period, that will reinforce compliance.

    As you had said in the last paragraph, I think the main thing is that people on the Haven do want to be changed, and that most of the resistance is fuzzy as best. I don't really know of many stories or captions out there where someone is forced against their will to be changed and continues to fight very much. It does happen, as in I've done a few for Simone with that outcome, but in general, the acceptance is probably due to its audience.

    Anybody else have thoughts as to my original post, or the replies from both Jennifer and myself?

  3. I've done a lot of caps where their is no direct recipient and it's kind of spoiled me. I don't set out to offend anyone but I think it's weird to decide which types of forced feminization caps are offensive and which aren't. I think sanitizing them so they are safe takes away what I find interesting about them and doesn't actually remove the offensiveness when you think about it.

    Quite a few forced fem caps can be summarized as a man being transformed and then raped. Blackmail, coercion, trickery and brute force are all often used. Is it less offensive if the 'victim' likes it? Or is that just providing a convenient out? I know it's what a good deal of the audience prefers, but there is also an audience for people that like continual humiliation.

    I think all my captions fall on some spectrum of offensive, sexist, misanthropic, or just plain mean spirited, but I hope the context I put them in makes it clear that I am examining these elements not endorsing them.

  4. @ smitty

    I think most would agree that it's just fantasy. Obviously people have them, but they wouldn't really want it too take place. at least not 100% like the stories they read and write.

    @ Dee
    It may have worked in most of the caps you have read, but It ruined the one's I've read more often then not. It takes you out of the story and completely changes the tone in the story.

    There's varying degree's that can be featured in a story or caption, If they are featured at all. But then, by the end of the tale, out of no where! They loved it all. It never fit, and it never makes sense. some people can leave clues through out the story that by the end of it, she will be a slave to her desires. Smitty does a VERY good job of it himself. but Most people downplay everything that was already established in the story, suddenly the person in the story loves absolutely everything that's been done to them. It's no longer forced and it's no longer humiliation.

    Humiliation doesn't even have to feature another person, It can just be the situation your in. so I don't agree that it MUST have acceptance.

    Acceptance and compliance can also have varying degree's. in my school girl caps they were trained to accept it, but that kept the humiliation and even added a new dimension of humiliation to it.

    It seems that my original question was lost, which is my fault. but last night I saw the biggest problem when humiliation is used, is that people down play it or completely change the mood, the setting, and the tone of the cap in the last few words of the caption.

  5. I have to admit that I find it hard to write caps where humiliation is NOT part of the subject's reaction. I do so because it is where I would come from... I would find turning into a woman humiliating. When I absolutely try to avoid any humiliation, the story just rings false to me. I do it for some people, and they seem to enjoy it, but overall I try to avoid it.

    As for not offending the person... I honestly never thought of it as something someone would get offended by. I only make the humilation overt when someone requests it. There are many people on the Haven that I would not make a cap for out of the blue, as I don't think my style would fit their preferences. I also find that people will read into the cap what they want to hear. Sometime when I write 'Oh My God!!' the subject will read it as an exclimation of desire and pleasure, while it can be equaly interpreted as an exclimation of humiliation and shame. Again I won't make the humiliation aspect overt, unless it was requested.

    As for the 'rapid acceptance'; I think that in some ways is used to tamp down the humilation to make it acceptable for the subject, or for a wider audience. I know I've done that in a few of my caps when I wrote a story that I didn't want to change, but now didn't fit the subject I was writing for. My prefered method is to end the cap before the humilation/acceptance is complete and let the reader put in their own ending. I've recieved a few caps that didn't quite fit my personal 'humiliation level' that I metaly add a paragraph or two where the humilation comes in. And just as I write that I realized something... I never put in my preferences that I prefer humilation. Maybe thats why I rarely get caps that focus on it. I am going to take this opportunity to remidy that and update my preferences.

  6. @Caitlyn Masked

    I do agree with Dee, and you, that on the haven and on some other sites you have to go lite on the humiliation. That's not a problem with me. I've even done it many times myself. It's when everything that's been set up in the cap is undone by the end of it.

    as by your example Caitlyn, I can understand starting to write a caption and just "going with the flow" only to remember at the end, the person doesn't like the subject matter at all. If I find that I've done that, I try to find someone that will enjoy it or rework it someway so the person will like it. Changing the ending is an an easy out. over all the cap is enjoyable for the person you made it for, and that's what really matter's. for me though, Being someone that enjoys the subject matter, I feel it comes out of nowhere. I still enjoy the caption, but by the end It feel's like I'm reading a whole other story.

    Maybe It's just as simple as peer pressure? or fearing that the person won't like it all if you don't do something to make it all better by the end. I can certainly understand that playing a part. I recently made a cap that didn't focus on any erotic stimulation or funny jokes too break the tension. It came out exactly like I wanted, a TG horror caption. but I was too scared to post it on the haven for fear that people may be offended.

  7. I used to do caps with humiliation in them, but that was back when I was exploring different types of changes in captions. I never really made captions for anybody else, so I have not had the problem of worrying about it going to far. The limit I set was how far I wanted to take it.

    When I do make a caption for somebody else, it is usually a person that I have gotten to know well enough that I know what they like to see. Usually it is along the same lines as what I like to see in a caption as well. I find it hard to write for others and their preferences. Best way I know how to put that - picture a band like Megadeth trying to write a country song. lol That's basically how I feel, lost and confused and it usually is not as good as I feel I can do if I were in my own comfort zone of writing.

  8. By the way, Isobelle, I really liked your humiliation caps.

  9. @ Jennifer

    I agree that tacking on some pleasure, or a character change (character death) at the end is an easy way out. But I find it terribly difficult to re-write my work. And even if it doesn't come through with some of my captions, I try to make it specificaly for a single person. I know many people on the haven tend to have caps ready to go, and then find someone that it fits, but I've never done that myself. So with the choice of starting over, or just tacking some pleasure onto the end, I choose the latter.

    I admit that for me, the cap is now less than it was. But I wasn't making the cap for myself anyway. And as I said on an earlier post, I go in knowing that I won't be really satisfied with any of my own caps, so the disapointment is already expected, and therefore lessened.

    I made a cap last night for someone on the haven and tried to keep out almost all signs of pleasure/acceptance, and I think it came across very well. The only pleasure the character got, caused evem more humiliation. It was recieved well, but I was nervous posting it. Especially after reading the posts here.

    I really find it almost funny that we are treating this as an almost taboo subject in a realm devoted to a taboo subject.

    @ Isobelle Nichole

    I think that is the perfect example. Creating these caps is a form of art. And as any artist knows you are good at many things, great at somethings, and not good at others. Most of the skills used in creating a good cap (image selection, layout, background, font selection) can be used for any writing style. But this doesn't mean that a person who is great at writing a particular type of cap, can create ANY type of cap. I take quite a bit of solace in that.

    And I agree with smitty... I really enjoyed your caps that featured humiliation. I like almost all of your caps, but I got a special thrill reading the ones using humilation.

  10. @caitlyn masked

    I found it funny too. It's one reason I asked the question in the first place. (Then I latter found my biggest problem with how it's used.) Even Dee was saying how it is abuse if you don't have them accept it by the end. I'm not really sure exactly how she meant that statement, So I'll stop myself from examining it any further. But there's an obvious audience for it, Just look at the majority of the comics for sale at LUSTOMIC. they have done so well for themselves they are making movies now.

    I know alot don't enjoy it and many other fetish's and kinks you see in TG caps. but I was just confused as too why so many of them have to do a 180 and spoil all of the fun set up at the start of the caption. Maybe it's just me. Or maybe It's becuase I seek out those caps more often then not, so I have seen it done poorly more times then some other people have.

  11. @ Jenniger

    What I meant about abuse was that if you don't make something the slightest bit acceptable to the person, it is just abuse, plain and simple.

    Why does Charlie Brown keep trying to kick the ball when Lucy keeps pulling it away from him? It's the lure of something, whether a treat, the chance to do something right, an award, or pleasure, no matter how small.

    To relate it in a TG caption sense, dressing up a guy in a sissy outfit and parading him in the mall is humiliating. but then taking him to a dressing room and rubbing him through the panties until he cums, is pleasurable. But then you make him walk through the store with the remnants of a hard on showing through the dress and an obvious wet spot is even MORE embarrassing to him. Perhaps when you get him home, you make him like the panties clean and spank him for messing up his dress. I think there HAS to be a treat involved, regardless of how small it is. If anything, its how you "hook" them in and get them even deeper into the situation.

    I'm not exactly emphatic about what I've written, but for me it seems to be the way to go. If in real life you meet a Dom that treats you like shit and never gives any sort of affection at all, PLEASE RUN LIKE HELL as far away and as fast as you can.

    What would be better is a "yes sweetie, you do not have to wear the cock cage tonight." "Thank you mistress" "But you WILL have to use the pump-up butt plug and nipple clamps" "No Mistress, please no!" Yes you have to break down the person to mold them to what you (and they) want themselves to be, but you do have to build them up at certain times to reinforce exactly what you do want them to be.

    @ everyone

    I think one of the reasons you have people accepting their fate in the end is that is it probably easier mentally to cope. Call it the Stockholm syndrome or the "Whatever gets you through the day" groove, but it just ends up easier to go with the flow than to freak out and fuck up your entire psyche. Plus, as I thought I mentioned before, the Haven is rife with people that WANT the change to happen in the caption.

    In a way, I think we've probably hooked up a few people here to do some trades dealing with the topic of humiliation, and perhaps everyone will get EXACTLY the kind of caption they are looking for!! Who'd have thunk it? LOL

  12. @Dee

    well, I guess I have made a few "abuse" caps. but Then, I do like writing up darker tales though. My stuff May stick too some real world possible settings, but it's all fantasy.

  13. Interesting what people are saying about the way in which we end our captions. I don't necessarily deal with humiliation as most of my captions have a comedic undertone to them. As far as endings go...

    At some point in grade school, I'm sure we've all seen the way stories are constructed. You have the conflict, rising action, falling action and a resolution. Because most captions are basically short stories, caption artists usually find a quick sentence or two to provide some sort of resolution to the story. I know I like to add punny/ witty endings as a sort of zinger. I also find that as I write captions, the ending is the last thing I write (no shit, really?), and so the last sentence sometimes suffers as an interior "I need to wrap this up."

  14. @ Dee
    I can see where you are coming from with the abuse. In real life I certainly agree with you. My caps (and the caps/fantasies running around unwritten in my head) would be horrible in real life. I don't want them to happen to me, my friends, my worst enemies.... to anyone. But I find the story so much better when the subject just keeps getting in deeper and deeper, with only the promise that it will somehow end if only he subjects himself to one more humiliation.

    You mentioned Charlie Brown and the 'Lure' of kicking the football. The 'Lure' of my fantasy is the hope that this humiliating experience will end. But much like Charlie Brown not ever getting to kick the football, in my fantasy that lure of the humiliation ever ending is unrealized. When I add in pleasure for the subject it is only to further the humiliation. Like in your other example; yes he got his jollies off and it was pleasurable, but it only drew him in deeper for further humiliations. I guess what I'm saying is that while my fantasy is almost pure abuse, it is still my fantasy. I hope that someone (either someone else for me, or me for myself) can write down that 'perfect' scenario.
    To put it in a more literature like setting. George Orwell's 1984 is about a horrible world where the subject and most people endure suffering upon suffering. There is a great lure of changing the society, but in the end it is just deeper suffering. In one sense it is just abuse, but that doesn't take away its greatness.

    I understand that many people that get caps on the haven really do want the change, and my type of cap isn't for them. If I get the chance to write for them, I would never give them one of these humiliating caps. And I think that is where the frustration lies. It is better to assume that the people on the haven DON'T want that type of cap. That way I don't inadvertently hurt someone, or upset them.

    But yes, this conversation has defiantly sent me in the direction of people who I can share this type of cap with.

    @ Kaitlyn
    It is interesting seeing how people write their caps. You write the ending to your caps last, while I generally start with the ending. When I look at the image I have chosen it is almost always at the end of the story, so I have the end situation in mind. I then work at the beginning. Once I have those two parts I try to work in some interesting details in between. Of course nothing is safe from the edit monster, but while the beginning and details change quite often, the ending almost always remains the same!

    As an example; In my cap for reprobate (The Tingling Feather Sensation) I started with the image and it told me about a person who was surprised to see someone walking up behind them. I then went to the beginning and figured out this person was going to go through a transformation because he didn't believe it was possible. I added the details of the changes bringing on great pleasure, and that this person would be tied down while this happened (which brought in the detail of another person coming in to retighten the bonds because the person's body had gotten smaller.

    Once I had those details, I started writing. Sadly in that example I wrote much more that I originally intended to. The image was a single one that I found and not part of a series so I had to find other pictures to fill it out. I'm finding this problem more often as my cap length keeps growing. (much like this post!)

    I think it was Dee that told me one day I would end up writing stories. I think that will come true as I feel I am leaving SO MUCH out of the caps that would make them better.

  15. I tend to agree that not having them accept it in the end is abuse, but I also think having them accept it is abuse too, just a different type. I sometimes get leery of talking honestly about my caps as I don't want to offend people that enjoy them or themes in them shared in other caps.

    But since we are all talking trade here, and I've hinted at this in other caps I'll be honest. I don't think the forced change they eventually like is somehow more acceptable than the forced change they don't. It's still rape if one partner doesn't consent, even if they enjoyed it. And even if they become so broken as to normalize it. Basically we are looking at preferences of different types of rape fantasies. But when looking at rape I don't think the type of rape is hierarchical.

    So why are so many of my caps full of rape victims that deserve it, rape victims falling in love with their rapists, and plenty of rape victims that may physically enjoy it but never accept it? Because I think these are interesting stories and interesting fantasies.

    I am an outsider to tg capping in a lot of ways and I think that shows up in a lot my caps. I don't mean them to be confrontational, it's just how I see the story.

    I've told a number of willing stories passably well, but I'll be honest and say I generally don't find as much interesting about these caps because they lack conflict. But I also have no interest in fantasizing about the transformation as wish fulfillment as it's not one of my actual fantasies. I can see the appeal for such stories for other people, but it's just not one of mine.

    So are my caps outsider caps? I don't know. I know there are plenty of people that will probably never enjoy quite a large number of caps I do and I don't blame them. But I don't think I'd be able to write caps like "My Better Half" if I they weren't a break from what I usually write.